| Theory |
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War Criminals November 23, 2004 by RedStar2000 |
If you have noticed the lengthy hiatus between entries at this site, it's usually due to technical problems with the Che-Lives server -- which also hosts this site.
Then I must go looking for another board to post on...almost always with disappointing results.
Here are some posts from an atheist message board...suggesting that patriotism is just another kind of superstition.
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quote:
I did not spend a quarter of a century in the military, serving two combat tours in Nam, one in Grenada, and one in the Noreiga fiasco plus many intel ops, to listen to people bad mouth our Nation, our People, our political system.
Then shut your ears, war criminal!
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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quote:
Well, redstar2000, at least I am brave enough to commit my life to a cause, even to the point of giving my life for it...
Sorry, that cuts no ice, war criminal.
Physical courage is as common as dirt; name any "cause" and you'll find people willing to "commit their lives even unto death" for it.
It's what you commit to that counts.
You committed yourself to mass murder for the greater glory of U.S. imperialism.
In particular, I take it that you personally dropped bombs on the Vietnamese...a method of "combat" that is indistinguishable from serial killing.
Hey, hey, hey, hey,
How many kids did you kill today?
quote:
If you support marxism...
Karl Marx never killed a single person. Neither have I.
But you've killed quite a few, haven't you? Was the money good? Was it a lot of fun?
Did it make you feel like a "real man"? Like a "warrior"?
Or were you "just doing your job"? (The German translation is "we were just carrying out our orders.")
Not that it matters. You're still a war criminal.
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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quote:
Redstar -- where the hell did that come from?
It came from here...
quote:
2 tours and 428 combat mission Forward Air Control - does that make me a hero too?
What do you think he was dropping on the Vietnamese...leaflets?
quote (webmaster):
That kind of personal attack is beyond my tolerance level.
Knock it off - now!
If someone came to this board and said, "I was an SS concentration camp guard and personally participated in 428 massacres" and someone else expressed their condemnation of a person who would do that, would your response still be "knock off the personal attacks"?
Is it "ok" to attack war criminals as long as you don't name them?
Or do you think that Americans are "never" war criminals?
Or at least not any Americans that you personally know?
quote:
...but us "old timers" know him for the great guy he is.
He's a "great guy" who just happens to have murdered a bunch of Vietnamese on the orders of his imperialist government.
What's a little napalm "between friends"?
quote:
Redstar,
Go fuck yourself. Who the fuck do you think you are?!
A guy who tells the truth...even when it pisses people off.
And it often does.
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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quote:
How does authority obtain a sense of legitimacy in a marxist system?
There are several "kinds" of possible answers to that question...depending in part on what you mean by terms like "authority", "legitimacy" and even "marxist".
I will offer my answer with the caveat than many self-styled "marxists" would vehemently disagree.
A "marxist system" is called communism...a society without a state, without classes, without money or markets, without compulsory labor (wage-slavery), and without a good many other things that characterize the prevailing social order -- such as professional organs of repression, public superstitions, racism, etc.
In fact, there's really not much in the way of "authority" at all -- at least in the contemporary sense. Social decisions will likely be, for the most part, in the hands of local people -- "big" projects (like the colonization of the solar system) -- would have to win the approval of a great many communes and collectives to get off the ground.
You could think of it as "ultra-democracy" without rich or poor...and you'd get pretty close to the idea. I like the phrase coined by SDS back in the 60s -- "participatory democracy". People must be allowed a direct say over any decision that will affect their lives.
Now, before the resident reactionaries start screaming "what about Russia, what about China, etc.", I will point out that Marx's vision is much closer to what I have summarized than the views of Stalin, Mao, etc.
It's my personal opinion that the "famous" (or "infamous") figures of 20th century "communism" were not "devils" but rather sincerely thought they were "doing the right thing" to advance the cause of communism.
Unfortunately, they were wrong...and, most of the time, badly wrong at that. They believed that you could substitute will for the advanced technology required for a communist society to work.
You can't "make" people behave in a communist way under pre-communist material conditions...no matter how many of them you shoot.
Reactionaries crow a lot these days about how the triumph of capitalism in the USSR, China, etc. "proves" that communism is "against human nature".
It "proves" nothing of the sort, of course. What it does prove is that when semi-feudal and backward despotisms reach a certain level of technological development, capitalism as "the next stage" of class society is "on the agenda".
At this point I would link you to some pieces on my site that go into more detail. Unfortunately, the host server was hacked and it will probably be a while before things are back up and running.
There's class struggle even on the internet.
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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quote:
I'm all for banning redstar now.
Thanks for your support.
quote:
I'm one combat vet that is gratified that these folks can still bitch, without being put in jail or worse.
Many people in the United States were "put in jail" for "bitching" about the war against Vietnam (including myself)...as they have been for "bitching" about the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq.
So far, no modern anti-war protester has yet been killed. In 1970, four unarmed protesters were shot and killed by the Ohio National Guard and many were wounded. Three kids were also killed in Jackson, Mississippi, and three more in Orangeburg, South Carolina. 27 members of the Black Panther Party were murdered by various police agencies in the late 60s and early 70s.
Over 2,000 peaceful and unarmed protesters were recently arrested at the Republican National Convention for "bitching".
Your gratification is misplaced.
quote:
However, I much doubt that Vietnam (or any of our wars since WWII) had anything to do with securing freedom for anyone...
Not a thing.
quote:
I didn't volunteer to preserve a government, but to preserve the freedom of my people and "I thought" to gain it for another people, but then I was a stupid kid.
Youthful follies can be overcome -- the members of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War played an extraordinarily honorable role in the anti-war movement.
But their numbers were too few.
quote:
I love the good old USA...
But it doesn't love you.
You should not love things that can't love you back.
quote:
...you think a man or woman who puts his or her life on the line for the security and safety of the country is just doing a job?
I've heard military personnel say that -- "we're just doing our job" -- both during the 1960s and today.
And what is this crap about "the security and safety of the country"? It's a fucking EMPIRE!
quote:
Those people are out there every day, staring down the barrels of guns over and over for US to SIT HERE ON OUR FAT ASSES and bitch about the country!
No, they are "staring down gun barrels" for the sake of oil barrels.
So far, the estimates of civilian deaths in Iraq are between 15,000 and 100,000.
Something to be "proud" of, right?
quote:
...if you don't like what's going on, get your lazy arse out of the house, do something, go talk to people, write letters to congressmen, write a letter to DUBYA himself, even!
But you haven't done that, have you? No, you've just sat here and insulted a man who helped keep your bloody mother alive so she could birth you, fucker.
Yeah, the Vietnamese were about to land at Santa Monica and kill my mother. *laughs*
Now, as to my "lazy ass", I went on my first anti-war demonstration in 1961...it's funny to look at the photos from those days because we all wore suits and ties to "look respectable". In 1962, I beat the draft entirely (without going to jail or to Canada). From 1965 to 1970, I worked full-time for SDS (in the South no less) and also had a "day job". During the 1970s and early 1980s, I wrote for and helped to publish several underground newspapers.
Then I got old (dammit!)...and now I just drag my feeble carcass to the keyboard.
We do what we can do.
(Writing letters to capitalist politicians is a waste of effort...unless you enclose a very large check.)
quote:
Now, let's talk about the German translation 'we were just following our orders.' To equate our military, who are truly trying to save our lives, with a military whose only purpose was to kill anyone who didn't fit into acceptably insane standards of aesthetics and religion...that's not a fair comparison, to say the least.
It's completely fair...unless you wish to argue that the Iraqi Marines were about to storm the beaches of Long Island.
These arguments that you raise -- the American mercenaries are "defending us" -- are fundamentally moronic. It is simply inconceivable that either Vietnam or Iraq was ever a credible military threat to the United States.
The purpose of the U.S. military has, in fact, always been aggressive. The rhetoric about "self-defense" has never been anything more than a pack of lies.
quote:
Lastly, I'd simply like to tell you this. There are many of us on these boards who have ties to Vietnam. My ex-fiancee's father, along with being my favorite atheist in the world, was in Vietnam. The man is 70+ years old now and still has nightmares about the things he did and the things he saw.
Maybe he should write down what he did and what he saw...and publish it.
I'm sure there are lots of people walking around with bad memories...things that "can't be told" because civilized people would find them disgusting.
I'm also sure there are lots of Vietnamese who "still" have nightmares...over what was done to them.
quote:
You're an insipid, vile little rat for saying those things to [Mr. War Criminal] and you owe him more than an apology. To be truthful, you owe him (and the other fellows and ladies who've enlisted) your life.
He will receive neither. But it will be interesting to learn if your mouth is writing checks that your ass can't cash. If you volunteer for occupation duty in Iraq or elsewhere, I'll send a bouquet to your memorial service.
Stinkweed would be appropriate, I think.
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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quote:
This was one famous saying that I always admired, growing up
"I may not agree with whay you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."
One of the French enlightenment philosophers said it. But if I'm not mistaken, he was lying; he lived very close to the Swiss border and at the slightest hint of royal displeasure, he was on the other side.
He didn't even "defend to the death" his own "right to say it".
quote:
I won't give the details, but I did a few war crimes myself up close and personal.. So you can add me to your list if you care to.
Consider yourself added.
How about those "details"? Rape? Torture? Killing women and children?
Don't you feel a "moral obligation" to tell the "youngsters" here about what America is really like?
quote:
SS concentration camp guards were a part of a group of people that murdered Jews, gays, etc. simply because of who they were. We were at war with the vietnamese. If you don't see the difference than you are just as stupid as I thought.
Gee, I must have missed the "declaration of war"...guess I didn't see that day's paper.
When was it? And did the Vietnamese "bomb Pearl Harbor" or what?
Also, there were parts of Vietnam that were designated, if I remember correctly, as "free fire zones"...meaning American troops could kill any Vietnamese in such a zone.
Just for being Vietnamese.
quote:
[Mr. War Criminal] is more of a man than you will ever be.
I'm glad you said that about him and not me. I would find support from someone like yourself extremely embarrassing.
quote:
If someone came to this board and said, "I was an SS concentration camp guard and personally participated in 428 massacres" and they didn't want to talk about it due to the pain it caused them to just think about it...then yes, I would tell a piece of shit like you to knock off the personal attacks.
Awww...what a sweetie you are.
Never mind the pain of the victims...what about the pain of the executioner?
I think you should start a support-group for war criminals.
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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quote:
Do you really think men and women in the military service can choose where to go and what to do?
Yes I do. They are armed.
That means they can turn their weapons on their officers any time they feel suitably motivated.
Guess who wins any armed conflict between soldiers and officers?
The real American heroes in Vietnam were the ones who fragged their officers. If only there had been more of them!
Just as the real heroes in the Third Reich were those who deserted and resisted.
quote:
It's not a single enlistee's fault that we're in the middle east right now.
I never said or implied that.
What I do say is that if you find yourself trapped in an imperialist war, then you have an obligation to resist -- presuming you wish to continue considering yourself a decent human being.
That means you disobey orders (openly or covertly), encourage other soldiers to do the same, desert, kill your officers if possible, video-tape war crimes and smuggle the tapes to the world press...whatever it takes to expose what's really going on.
Here's one of the tiny number of Biblical quotations that I've found to actually be true...
He that doeth evil hateth the light.
quote:
But let's go live in your fictional world for a few moments. Let's say the people in the services all went AWOL right now and for the next 10 years no one enlisted.
What do you think would happen?
I actually expect something along those lines to happen...as the immediate prelude to proletarian revolution.
When the Petrograd garrisons went over to the revolution, 300 years of czarist despotism went down the toilet in days.
The 300th birthday of the American Empire will be 2076...so, if we're going to do better than the Russians, it's time to go to work.
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 5, 2004
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For some reason nearly everyone grabbed on to my (and probably 95% of Vietnam era Veterans) personal belief that Kiss-Ho-Kerry is a traitor to his country, a sell out to his brothers and sisters in arms and indirectly responsible for many American deaths during the period of his Peace Activism...
What did you expect? Kerry, for all his faults, attempted at one time to atone for his "sin" of participating in imperialist war...and this is precisely what you denounce him for. Later on, when he married big money and sunk himself into the usual capitalist muck (supporting the Patriot Act, supporting the U.S. aggression against Iraq, etc.) that ought to have been enough to "redeem himself" in your eyes.
During the campaign, he was just as patriotic as Bush himself...even promising to send another 40,000 troops to Iraq.
I like that phrase, by the way, "a traitor to his country"...it has all kinds of interesting implications.
Like we get to "choose" what country we want to be born in...and if we change our minds afterwards, we're "traitors". Look at all the people on this board who were born into a certain religion...and have betrayed it.
Does the idea make sense? If we're born and grow up in country X, are we stuck with that?
If we don't "have a country", does that make us "less than human"?
Personally, I don't think we "owe allegiance" to any country any more than we "owe belief" to any gods. When you get down to it, patriotism is just like any other superstition...a stinking pile of irrational emotions, blind prejudices, and bloody ambitions.
Some people profit from it, most people are used by it, and certain people are willing to kill for it.
It's not "ok".
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 10, 2004
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I think the war criminal is very agile for a man of his (and my) years...when the subject of U.S. war crimes in Vietnam arises, he wants to talk about Stalin.
When the subject of U.S. war crimes in Iraq right now arises, he wishes to discuss the strategies of World War II.
And when I post a brief explanation of the real nature of patriotism...um, he doesn't have any response at all.
He's also rather "fuzzy" about American history...
quote:
If you are thinking of fighting the war through demonstations ala Redstartheidiot, stop and think how ineffective that was in the 60's and 70's...
At the obvious risk of "special pleading", I think we did quite well, thank you. Though we could have done even better had we avoided some crucial mistakes.
Of course, the real credit belongs to the Vietnamese. The Russians and the Chinese provided important material assistance. And one must not overlook the anti-war movement in Europe as well.
But I think we in the U.S. did help both in arousing wide-spread opposition to the war and the draft at home as well as demoralizing U.S. troops in Vietnam itself.
It was the first really significant defeat for U.S. imperialism ever.
May Iraq be the second in a long series to come.
quote:
After all Teddy Roosevelt did it with his Bullmoose party early in the twentieth century (1912) and won!
No, Woodrow Wilson won the 1912 charade. Teddy finished second.
Woody, by the way, was re-elected in 1916 on the basis that "he kept us out of war".
Then the Wall Street bankers paid a visit to the White House -- something about what would happen to all those outstanding loans to England and France if Germany won -- and damn if Woody didn't "get wood".
Oh the Yanks are coming, the Yanks are coming...
Meanwhile, the war criminal is also kind of "fuzzy" on Russian history...
quote:
And standing up to Hitler (after siding with him to divide Poland and take Finland, Lithuania, etc) gives [Stalin] the right to destroy entire ethnic groups (the kulaks), murder millions in his quest for power.
.
Russia did not "take Finland"...in fact, Finland was an ally of Germany during World War II.
The "kulaks" were not an "ethnic group"...they were well-to-do peasants who resisted collectivization.
By the way, the "liquidation of the kulaks as a class" is proceeding very rapidly in all the advanced capitalist countries right now. The modern "family farm" (what there is left of it) operates like a business but to no avail. The corporate pressure is relentless and will not be stopped until all agriculture is corporate. (Even now, most farm subsidies actually go to agricultural corporations.)
The idea that Stalin "murdered millions" goes back, I think, to the early 1930s...when the claim was made that a Ukrainian famine (1.5 million dead) was a consequence of deliberate policy on the part of Stalin. (The claim was made by anti-Soviet Ukrainian exiles, of course.)
Whether true or not, I don't know -- but I do know that the "story" was favorably received by capitalist ideologues in the west and has been endlessly elaborated on ever since.
By the late 1940s, it was claimed that Stalin "murdered 20 million" and the numbers kept climbing even after Stalin was himself dead.
One of those ideologues blamed Stalin for World War II...and added those numbers in as well.
Since (1) I don't propose to "imitate Stalin" and (2) I don't think there's any reliable way to distinguish between deaths caused by the variables of climate, rainfall, etc. and the deaths "ordered by Stalin" -- I'm ready to let the real historians figure it out.
I don't think even the most rabid of Stalin-haters can figure out a way to blame Stalin for what the United States in doing in Iraq right now.
But who knows? They might try.
quote:
You know what the problem with you guys is? Youre just pissed that your system flunked the litmus test of history and that only three major commie governments remain, China - which is slowly sliding to capitalism, Vietnam - which is begging to be allowed to become capitalistic, and Cuba - which is waiting for a pathetic old man to die before kicking his party out!
From your point of view, the situation is even better.
China has clearly become a capitalist country already...they're even getting ready to let their big businessmen join the "Communist" Party. *laughs*
Vietnam is moving rapidly in the same direction; one of the things guys like you never understood about your enemy is that most Vietnamese were fundamentally patriots like yourself and not communists or even socialists at all.
Even Cuba is really a "mixed economy" and corporate investments from Europe are "eating away" at Cuba's socialism (not communism). The likelihood is that Cuba will indeed become capitalist in the next decade or two...but I hope they will escape the fate of being a U.S. colony again. Perhaps by that time they will be able to join a Latin American version of the EU.
So yes, I am "pissed" that 20th century "communism" fucked up and lost.
Just as I'm sure that European capitalists were really pissed when the revolutions of 1848 were all defeated and the stinking, arrogant, corrupt aristocracies all got back in the saddle.
But you know history didn't stop in 1848, did it? It didn't stop in 1992 either...
quote (BBC):
Fadhil Badrani, a journalist in Falluja who reports for the BBC World Service in Arabic, compared the city to Kabul, the Afghan capital largely reduced to rubble after years of warfare.
An unnamed man claiming to be a rebel fighter told the BBC's Today programme that the destruction in Falluja was "total".
"The Americans are bombing everywhere," he said, adding that water and electricity had been cut off.
Do you wish you were there?
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First posted at Ex-Christian Net on November 10, 2004
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