Citizen of Brezhnev-era ex-Soviet Union interview: part III

[In the first part of our interview with this citizen from the Caucasus, we asked about Brezhnev era politics and economics in general in the state-capitalist Soviet Union. In part II we asked Hari about MIM's sex education platform. In part III, we follow up with gender questions in the Caucasus in general. This interview was conducted before the 11 September attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.]

MIM: When did you first become aware of lesbians in the Caucasus of the ex-Soviet Union? Was lesbianism expressed in public anywhere that you knew of? Did you know anything about a lesbian feminist or lesbian separatist movement there?

Hari: Oh, I was never aware of lesbians in ex- Soviet Union. I'm still not. Probably, there were some, but I've never heard of them. I think they just stayed underground. I have never seen expressions of lesbianism in public, nor have I known anything about any lesbian feminist or separatist movement. There wasn't any feminist movement, for that matter. Wimmin in the ex-Soviet Union were officially considered equal to men, and actually enjoyed much greater opportunities and freedoms than wimmin in the United $tates. However, wimmin's equality was a result of changes in social structure: it was one of the achievements of socialism, not some feminist movement. Worse, the American type of feminism was considered destructive, divisive and dangerous for society.

MIM: We have spoken here of lesbian separatist, asexual and heterosexual political orientations and the necessity to have theoretically clear and mature understandings of ourselves. Do you find this question to be of universal (cross-cultural) value?

Hari: Yes, I do find this question to be of universal value. I think the problem of American feminism in many cases is it's inconsistency with it's own ideas. It's hard to say if it's caused by inability to think clearly or by simple hypocrisy. Lesbianism is definitely most consistent with feminist ideology. Being heterosexual (in it's most socially acceptable, monogamous form) means that womyn voluntary accepts her position as a part of an alliance of two people, with all the consequences and imperfections. Wimmin who complain about lack of "equality", or struggle for more privileges, would be better off choosing lesbianism or asexuality. After all, no womyn would die in this country, if she doesn't sleep with a man. Wimmin here are perfectly able to support themselves. If womyn truly believes that she is being oppressed by a man, why in the world would she have to deal with such horrible creatures anyway? Can't she safely avoid all the contacts with them or bring them to minimum at the very least? (I.e., minimize all interactions with men to business.) However, some American feminists insist on having multiple relationships with multiple men and complaining about "being oppressed." Oppression is not oppression when it's so easily avoidable. Amerikan wimmin should have more clear understanding of themselves. In an ideal society, they would have to make a choice: either to be lesbian or asexual and isolate themselves from men totally; or to be the "best friend of man" and carry with no regrets and complaints such a beautiful role. Yes, wimmin may be allowed to change categories, but not too often, probably one or two times, I'm not sure.

MIM: We would just clarify that it is correct to struggle for equality, but to seek it in individual heterosexual relations within a system of inequality is inevitably hypocritical. What portions of biological wimmin aged 16 and up would you say were lesbian, asexual and heterosexual in the Caucasus that you knew?

Hari: I really never heard about lesbians in the Caucasus, so I can't imagine what percent of wimmin were lesbians. I think most of wimmin in their 20ies or older were heterosexual, but they became sexually active usually much later than in the United States, not at the age of 16 or 17. Probably, the reason was that having premarital sex wasn't considered ideal, even though it happened more often than not.

MIM: Returning to the sex education question for a moment, do you think a lack of sex education and say, a lack of experience with orgasm might cause some wimmin (people over 16 years of age) to be asexual? Do you think girl children should receive training on how to give themselves an orgasm?

Hari: Not for girl children, but for young wimmin who doubt their sexuality, such experience and training might be helpful to realize if they are truly asexual or not. However, I believe that when a womyn decides that she is not asexual, she does so because she has emotional, rather than only physical needs. Choosing asexuality, we cancel out much more than simply the possibility to reach orgasm. We choose to be in love with other people because we want to be close to them, not only to achieve as many orgasms as possible. Individualism [is] raised to the level of religion in the United States. [It] compels people to overemphasize the importance of the physical side of relationships (my orgasm is most important thing!) and almost ignore the rest. But this is so, so wrong - orgasm is not the most important thing. If it was, people would be happy and totally satisfied with masturbation and would not ask for anything else. If womyn is not ready for sex emotionally, achieving orgasm won't impress her very much. However, it's fair to be fully aware of what one's choices really are before making any decisions on whether one is asexual or not. I would like to stress that this kind of education (orgasm training) could be beneficial for young wimmin over age of 16, but definitely not for children.

MIM: If most children are by definition unisex or asexual in political orientation, do you think there are also a good portion of people over age 16 who might also be classified as children based on their reasons for asexual orientation?

Hari: Is it an implication that there is something wrong with asexuality? One can be mature adult and asexual at the same time. I don't think that such a private matter should be used to classify people over age 16 as children. I don't think absence of sexual feelings is that important.

MIM replies: Some people are consciously asexual in orientation, but generally babies are not and somewhere along the line one crosses from childhood to sexual adulthood and that would seem to be a fairly important social and biological threshold. MIM has no position that there is anything wrong with asexuality, and in fact holds that the abolition of power relations may see the entire species become asexual. Here the Liberal media and authorities have defined "sexual harassment" as "any unwanted sexual advance." Most include purely verbal actions as sexual harassment. We would like to ask you in particular about pick-up lines. Did men ask wimmin for dates in public? How did wimmin regard these public advances?

Hari: It was socially acceptable for men to ask wimmin for dates in public. Maybe, it's not a perfect way to meet somebody, but acceptable. Note, in the Caucasus culture arranged marriages were not so uncommon. Still, wimmin usually regarded these public advances without so much negative emotion. You may or may not accept it, but there is no reason to be offended. It's even flattering!

MIM: How did heterosexual men treat wimmin passing by on the street? Did they harass them?

Hari: Men may say something to wimmin, but not very often, and when it happened, nobody considered it harassment. Usually it was some kind of compliment, very rarely something rude or offensive.

MIM: Catharine MacKinnon has said that wimmin should celebrate the subjective as part of feminism. Do you think it is possible that sexual harassment is different in each culture or would you say that something so culturally bound can not claim to be part of gender oppression, since wimmin are half of the world?

Hari: Unfortunately, "subjective as part of feminism" could cost people accused of sexual harassment or even rape years in prison. Isn't it too high price for subjectivism? If we accept the idea that sexual harassment can be different in any culture, we must say that it's also different for any individual. In this case, how do you expect to determine what sexual harassment really is? How do you expect people to know what the other side does or does not consider harassment? There are certain things which definitely constitute sexual harassment in all cultures; other than that, subjective feelings and perceptions have nothing to do with oppression. Actually, in Western culture flirting was largely accepted historically, much more so than in Islamic or Asian countries, for example. However, Americans complain about harassment much more than anybody else. American wimmin want to flirt, but only with those with whom they really want to flirt. It's up to victims of "subjective as part of feminism" to figure it out. To define sexual harassment as something subjective is oppressive toward people who become victims of such practice.

MIM: What is your opinion about the proper way to meet for dating purposes? How do you view the trade-off between having a romance culture and offending wimmin pursued by men or lesbians?

Hari: American wimmin have to be more consistent: if they oppose things like arranged marriage and want to be able to choose freely their partners, then they must admit that this definitely entails certain inconveniences, like unwanted sexual advances. Those men or lesbians whose advances may offend wimmin do exactly the same thing these wimmin do: choose freely their partners. Yes, choices may not be mutual, but this is not a reason to be offended or talk about sexual harassment. The right to choose has to be given to all or to nobody. Wimmin who insist on "being offended" by attention from the opposite gender or lesbians must insist on putting on a veil and entering arranged marriages as well. At least, it wouldn't be so hypocritical. How do you expect freedom of choice for yourself if you want to deprive others of the same thing?

MIM: Do you think men should be allowed to initiate physical contact with wimmin when those wimmin have not said they want it?

Hari: I think that when wimmin actually put themselves in certain situations, they have already agreed to accept all possible consequences. Action is more important than verbal consent. When a womyn invites a casual date to her apartment "for a cup of tea" at 2 A.M. or attends a wild fraternity party she definitely gives men a consent to initiate physical contact. If later she complains about rape or harassment, she is just being dishonest and irresponsible. The root of these complaints could be simply changed mind if man failed to impress her enough.

MIM: Did you see any examples of professors offering better grades to students that would sleep with them? What about situations where bosses or co-workers would expect sex? Can you say anything about the history of the sexual harassment question based on any books you have read about the United $tates?

Hari: Not a gender issue, rather the situation is being promoted by the capitalist mode of production. Capitalism suggests a free market, free enterprise. If it's OK to have "deals" for business, then having sex with a professor for a better grade or manager for promotion is just another case of getting ahead in a capitalist environment. Also, those bosses and professors who ask for sexual favors in return for promotions or good grades could be very well females or gay men. MIM would say that biological men whose well-being is dependent on sexual favors which they give to biological females or gay men are actually "wimmin" in this particular situation. However, the same people in other situations, maybe a few hours later, could be in a position of a "man" again. I find it confusing and not very convincing to call those who suffer any kind of gender oppression "wimmin" and their oppressors "men". Even though MIM admits that biology has nothing to do with these definitions, biological terms are still being used, which is misleading and could serve as an excuse for biological wimmin who would rather use their gender as a license to oppress other people. In the contemporary United States so many biological wimmin definitely have enough power and influence to do so. Terms "gender oppressed" and "gender oppressor" would be more correct.

MIM: We refer to social relations, because we are communists interested in social relations. Biological definitions are secondary; when we say "wimmin," we generally mean "gender oppressed." Going on, we would agree that we have to separate what is part of capitalism and what is something generally and historically part of patriarchy. Even so, some capitalist countries are better than others in some small regards. Has there been anything you have seen within U.$. romance culture that you would regard as sexual harassment?

Hari: The only thing I would regard as sexual harassment or oppression is the fact that the cultural climate in the U.S. allows people to easily enter sexual relationships without any sense of responsibility, sometimes even without feeling for each other, just like some kind of sport. However, wimmin are as guilty of this practice as men are, maybe, even more so. So, this is not harassment against wimmin, this is rather a too permissive cultural standard of sexual behavior.

MIM: Did you see any wimmin in the Caucasus wearing a veil?

Hari: No, of course, not. Wimmin in the Caucasus, dressed more modestly than American wimmin (showing too much skin was considered inappropriate), but the veil -- of course, not. Just don't wear mini-skirts when you walk alone on the street: this was pretty much the only restriction.

MIM: Were all the Muslims from one nationality?

Hari: No, Islam, as you probably know, is a religion, not a nationality. However, Muslims of different nationalities definitely have in common some traits suggested by their religious background.

MIM: Which were the largest groups of Muslims ethnically?

Hari: In the Causasus, the largest groups of Muslims were Azeris, ethnically related to Turks.

MIM: What would be a typical problem regarding how a Muslim man regarded a non-Muslim womyn?

Hari: Unfortunately, Muslim men regarded non- Muslim, especially white wimmin as "easy prey" -- somebody who is good enough (actually, very good) to sleep with, but doesn't deserve anything else. It was very typical for Muslim man to date white womyn, and then break some day news that he has to marry his father's Muslim choice. Otherwise, his blood would be "contaminated," his line won't be pure. However, many non-Muslim wimmin eventually married their Muslim boyfriends by having babies. That was virtually the only way to break through this very unpleasant situation. Muslim men usually were very responsible for their children, and rarely wouldn't they marry a womyn who is a mother of his child. I doubt that this kind of relationship was worth saving, though.

MIM: What would be a typical problem with how a non-Muslim man regarded a Muslim womyn?

Hari: Non-Muslim men usually didn't regard Muslim wimmin as potential romantic interests. It's hard to say why. Probably, partially because they knew it would be too much trouble -- Muslims won't be happy to see their daughters dating or marrying outsiders. Patriarchy is to blame? However, on the other side, Muslim wimmin usually were not considered by non-Muslim men attractive enough to be pursued, especially in consideration of all problems involved.

MIM: What were some of the cultural approaches you saw to "protecting" wimmin or preventing their harassment?

Hari: I believe what you call a "cultural approach" is actually universal and a very simple thing. Those wimmin who didn't want to be harassed by men tried not to create situations where it could happen, like going at night to the bars alone, inviting men to their apartments, etc.

Wimmin who didn't mind "harassment" did whatever they wanted, but at least they didn't complain afterwards, as American wimmin do.

MIM: Did you read "Most wanted includes mom and her 'kidnapped' son" in MIM Notes 237?

Hari: Yes, I did. This is terrible. Even if that womyn really "kidnapped" her son, I don't think such case must be on the most wanted list.

MIM: How did the Soviet Union handle custody battles under Brezhnev?

Hari: Usually wimmin got custody, unless she was ill or a convicted criminal.

MIM: MIM is in favor of reducing the role of biological parents in child- raising. Do you think it would be possible for someone in Brezhnev times to have a custody battle and cause "missing children"?

Hari: Usually, it didn't happen. Of course, there were some extreme cases, but not as many as in in the United .States. Theoretically, custody battle was possible, but the "missing children" problem wasn't as common as in United States. As corrupt as Brezhnev's system was, child care and educational systems were more advanced and executed much greater control over families than in the United States. For example, if a child skipped school for more than 2 days, teachers were required to visit the family to find out what was going on. If something happened to the child, the school was held responsible, even if the episode occurred not during school hours. In case of young children before school age, the same role was performed by medical institutions. Of course, parents were aware of this practice, which made them more careful in solving their personal issues which involved children. The role of parents was still important, but definitely reduced compare to the United States: there was greater control from the state and children definitely benefited from it. However, reducing the role of parents is one thing, and eliminating it is totally different. The state (or community) cannot substitute for parents: children of WWII growing up in orphanages are a good example and proof for that. The state should control and prevent cases of child abuse, but I think it's obvious that many things can be given to children only by their parents--love, for example.

MIM: With regard to child-raising and schools, did you see any cheerleaders in the schools? How did the attentions to girls and boys in sports in the Caucasus compare?

Hari: Of course, there were no cheerleaders in schools in the Soviet Union. As I said, wimmin officially were considered equal; the idea of girls "cheerleading", providing entertainment for the audience while boys are seriously competing, wasn't acceptable. Instead, girls were encouraged to participate in all kinds of sports themselves.

MIM: That goes to show that abolition of cheerleading would be a case of something that can be won under capitalism or at least not reversed after the restoration of capitalism. It's an example of how each capitalist country has some things more progressive than other capitalist countries. Did you see examples of arranged marriages?

Hari: Yes, probably 30 or 40 percent of marriages, were arranged. However, those arranged marriages were not forced marriages. Wimmin didn't have to marry somebody they didn't want to. It was more like suggestion, a dating service provided by parents or relatives, if you wish.

MIM: Did you see wimmin who did not marry for love, but for material comfort?

Hari: Yes, I did, of course. I still do, it's not that uncommon in the United States, is it?

MIM: Did you see prostitution?

Hari: Prostitution was illegal and not very common. However, after Gorbachev's reforms, prostitution, as well as homelessness, unemployment and crime increased greatly and became much more obvious.

MIM: The world-famous "Battle of Stalingrad" happened in the region you are from. This reminds us of the fact that many men died during World War II and left behind widows. Did you know of many wimmin-headed households? Even today, the regional ratio of men to wimmin is about 87:100.

Hari: Yes, I knew households like that. It was common among WWII generation.

MIM: Do you think there was anything distinctive about them compared with families that had men still alive? What about how a whole culture changes when there is a shortage of men?

Hari: American feminists in '50s cursed patriarchy because they were lucky enough to do so. WWII didn't touch the United States very much--not much compared with the Soviet Union. American wimmin never knew what compulsory matriarchy is like, when most of the wimmin in the country are unclaimed, unwanted, and, yes, totally independent -- no other choice. They never knew what it's like when wimmin whose husbands or boyfriends came back hopelessly crippled, unable to work, unable to make love to them, were envied by their peers. Americans had a good chance to come up with great feminist ideas -- requesting for themselves more rights and privileges than they already had -- because WWII spared this country. Soviet wimmin didn't have such a luxury. They didn't think about war between genders as a good thing: their lives were stifled by real war.

MIM: Regarding monogamy, do you think that biological wimmin not in monogamous situations are being exploited? Do you think non-monogamous men should be criticized? How would you handle the question of biological wimmin who want to have more than one partner and frequently change partners?

Hari: Yes, I definitely think that wimmin not in monogamous situations are being exploited. Men who exploit them by being non-monogamous should be criticized. However, wimmin who desire to have more than one partner and frequently change them should be criticized even more, because they act as destabilizing factor in society and create excuses for those men who use their behavior as license to exploit other wimmin.

MIM: Did you think there was a proper place for "sharing" men after World War II in the Soviet Union thanks to the shortage of men?

Hari: It's very sad, but in the situations like in the Soviet Union after WWII it could be if not proper, but explainable. People were not happy to do it, but they had no choice sometimes. Too many wimmin were burned by war, lonely and deprived of their womynhood-- anything would go. Then, it wouldn't be experimentation, it would be despair.We must admit, though, that the United States doesn't even remotely resemble post-war Russia.

MIM: Is it your opinion that more than 50% of social problems are tied up with and caused by gender relations?

Hari: It depends on what you call social problems. If we talk about things like war, starvation, environmental pollution, it's apparently not gender related. However, societies with warped gender relations, societies which promote pornography and consider gender relations as something light and expendable (and this is what we have now in the U.S.) are doomed to destroy themselves. You cannot eliminate basic norms of humyn existence and expect to have a healthy society no matter how perfect it is otherwise. Wars and starvation kill bodies; gender relations reduced to "fun" or "experimental" activity is dehumynizing. The solution is putting a ban on pornography and imposing more strict social norms for both genders.

MIM: I showed you the USA Today and CNN articles on the Chandra Levy missing intern case in Washington, DC. It turns out that a 24-year-old intern had an affair with House Representative Gary Condit, 53. Now she is missing, without any real clues as to why, as of this date, August 13th. What is your take on this current event, and what have you heard and what have you got to say about Anita Hill versus Clarence Thomas, Gennifer Flowers and Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton? Since the Levy case is unfolding at the same time that the United $tates is abandoning the ABM Treaty with Russia (defensive missile treaty) and is testing anti-missile defenses for a kind of "Star Wars," what would you say about U.$. reading and news consumption priorities?

Hari: U.S. reading and news consumption priorities would be very, very funny, if they were not so sad. It really hard to say if it's funny or sad to consider the Levy case more news-worthy than abandoning of a defensive missile treaty. Seriously, it's another indication of how pervasive and officially subsidized pornography in American culture is. Probably, those who come up with these ideas, believe that it's much safer not to bother the public with troublesome issues, which require certain thinking abilities, but rather to entertain with officially sponsored pornography. Also, interesting news about all these affairs wouldn't be so interesting if society had a more negative attitude toward the wimmin involved. Now, it's almost some kind of heroism for wimmin to have an affair and then to talk publicly about it. It only distracts public attention from the real issues.

MIM: Thank you, Hari. We look forward to your complete comments on Ruth Rosen's book titled "The World Split Open." This interview covers many gender-related topics and we invite our readers to submit further discussion for struggle and to obtain MIM Theory 2/3 for most of MIM's material on these subjects.